Guns don't kill people

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Re: Guns don't kill people

#41

Post by I am nobody » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:55 pm

There's too many quotes in this post already, so I'll just respond to the last part of your most recent post by saying that history strongly disagrees with the idea that "normal" people can't commit atrocities. Read about the Rwandan genocide, to pick a relatively recent and particularly extreme example. 500,000 to 1 million people hacked to death by their neighbors in just over three months. Did everyone just temporarily go insane?

The notification linked me to your second post for whatever reason, so I just never saw this one until now.
I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:06 am
Comparing the Tucker and Trump to the KKK just because they described mass illegal immigration (not just "immigration") as an invasion is rather extreme if that's all you've got to go on.
I didn't compare them. I said that they were now using language you'd previously only have heard from fringe figures, which is true. I don't think Carlson is going out and attending Klan meetings on Tuesday nights, but saying that immigration makes us "dirtier", to pick another example, is certainly language from their playbook.

But I'm more specifically referring to replacement ideology, which Carlson and Ingrahm have both reference numerous times. See this for links to loads of examples.
I won't even touch on Islam, that can't go well, but what ideology of these public figures is "doing the killing"? What ideology do they believe in which is for killing other people?
To pick a few quotes from that page:
Discussing undocumented immigrants, Ingraham claimed that “this is an invasion of the country.” Telling her listeners that “they want to tell you you can’t say that anymore,” she doubled down on claiming that “they are invading the country.”
On Fox & Friends, Jones said that the, unlike Jews in Nazi Germany, migrants in America are “invading the U.S. border,” justifying the treatment of migrants in camps at the border.
Speaking to Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick, Ingraham said his state is “completely overrun by this illegal invasion” and “calling it anything but an invasion at this point is just not being honest with people.”
Fox & Friends guest and current CNN commentator Steve Cortes warned that “illegal immigrants are burglars, are thieves who are there to harm your security and steal your prosperity.”
So, no, they haven't explicitly said to go shoot anyone. But they have said it's an invasion, stressed that it's a real invasion, used that to justify obviously inhumane treatment, and then added on that they're criminals hear to ruin their lives.

If there actually was an invasion of criminals bent on replacing you who it was morally okay to mistreat headed your way, what would a rational response be?
These killings were caused by people, and the blame for them lies fully on those who inspired their ideas.
You cut out, like, all of the context for this statement. The OP is a redirection of arguments used in response to previous mass killings, as I've said.

The full version, again, is that if one blames Muslims (or socialism or radical environmentalism or whatever) at large for terrorism, as major figures have done, then one must also blame the anti-immigrant right at large for the actions in the OP.

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Re: Guns don't kill people

#42

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:03 am

I am nobody wrote:There's too many quotes in this post already, so I'll just respond to the last part of your most recent post by saying that history strongly disagrees with the idea that "normal" people can't commit atrocities. Read about the Rwandan genocide, to pick a relatively recent and particularly extreme example. 500,000 to 1 million people hacked to death by their neighbors in just over three months. Did everyone just temporarily go insane?
I will have to read about that since I don't recall hearing about it, but it certainly sounds insane by how you describe it, like some kind of "purge" level ****.
I am nobody wrote:I didn't compare them. I said that they were now using language you'd previously only have heard from fringe figures, which is true. I don't think Carlson is going out and attending Klan meetings on Tuesday nights, but saying that immigration makes us "dirtier", to pick another example, is certainly language from their playbook.

But I'm more specifically referring to replacement ideology, which Carlson and Ingrahm have both reference numerous times. See this for links to loads of examples.
What is your intention by pointing out that you think they're using similar language then if not to compare them? Also, I'm sure you don't just hear snippets of what Tucker says on some lefty site and walk away believing their crap, right? All it takes is watching Tucker to know it's bull****. Here:
Last week, we interviewed a man named Genaro Lopez. Lopez is an elected official in Tijuana, Mexico. He’s exactly the kind of person you’d think a lot of American journalists would want to talk to. For months, the media have demanded that the migrant caravan from Honduras must be admitted into the United States. Once it gets here, they’ve told us, our country will be greatly improved by its presence. That’s how immigration works.

OK. It turns out we can test that hypothesis. That very same caravan, the one they’ve been telling you about, is now encamped in Tijuana. It’s been there for weeks. Simple question: Has the caravan made Tijuana better? Genaro Lopez would know the answer. His job is to represent the citizens of that city. We’ve invited Lopez on twice to ask about the caravan. He’s some of what he told us.

I asked him, "Behind you it seems that somebody's cleaning up garbage. Is there a lot of trash there?"

Lopez responded: "There's a lot of trash because, what I was trying to tell you, the 360 [people we had here] grew to 6,200. And that's why it got out of hand. So, we got another facility. It's a big concert hall where you can have like 10,000 people under a roof."

That was on December 3. Ten days later, we invited Genaro Lopez back on to the show to see how Tijuana was doing.

Nobody else in the media seemed interested in what had happened to the caravan. As long as the migrants remained in Mexico, they couldn’t really be used to attack Donald Trump. So the press moved on to the next dumb, shiny thing. But we were interested. Here’s what Lopez told us:

"Things aren't getting better. They're probably getting worse," he said. "Last weekend, we issued an ultimatum to all the Hondurans and Guatemalans that are camping out here on the street. They're blocking the street. And they're bringing all their necessities, trashing the street. ... Problems are still going on. There's been like 280 arrests. Before, it was solely for drug possession and being drunk in the streets. Now, it's for breaking and entering into homes."

Trashing the street. Doing drugs in public. Blocking traffic. Breaking into homes. That’s not at all what CNN promised us.

Was Genaro Lopez one of those white nationalists the New York Times is always warning us about? Did he make the whole thing up, pictures and all, for his own sick, bigoted reasons?

Possibly. Or maybe, and this was our conclusion, there could be a lesson here for the United States. Here’s what we said that night on the show:

"Our country's economy is becoming more automated and tech-centered by the day. It's obvious that we need more scientists and skilled engineers. But that's not what we're getting. Instead, we're getting waves of people with high school educations or less. Nice people, no one doubts that but as an economic matter, this is insane. It's indefensible, so nobody even tries to defend it. Instead, our leaders demand that you shut up and accept this. We have a moral obligation to admit the world's poor, they tell us, even if it makes our own country poorer and dirtier and more divided."

In a fast-evolving economy, it could be preferable to import more engineers, and fewer people with low skills, no matter how nice or well-meaning those people might be. And we always assume they are.

That’s what we said. That was our claim. And it’s hard to argue with that. In fact, nobody on the left did argue with it. They ignored it. Instead, they zeroed in on the last line: “The left says we have a moral obligation to admit the world's poor, even if it makes our own country more like Tijuana is now, which is to say poorer and dirtier and more divided.”

That’s what we said. It’s true. Ask Genaro Lopez. Thanks to the efforts of the American left, he and his city are living with the consequences.
There's nothing wrong with what Carlson or Lopez said. I can't account for every single comment ever made by all of those people, but I don't see anything particularly "problematic."
I am nobody wrote:So, no, they haven't explicitly said to go shoot anyone. But they have said it's an invasion, stressed that it's a real invasion, used that to justify obviously inhumane treatment, and then added on that they're criminals hear to ruin their lives.

If there actually was an invasion of criminals bent on replacing you who it was morally okay to mistreat headed your way, what would a rational response be?
Is it not an invasion?
an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain
the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful
infringement by intrusion
entrance as if to take possession or overrun
Would it be okay if they just said there's an "unwelcome intrusion"? Or would it be deemed hateful that illegal immigrants are not welcome? I think anything they say will be attacked.

What "obviously inhumane treatment" is being justified? If you mean detaining illegal immigrants, do you have a better solution? I'd like to know what humane, effective action can be taken if you're against that.

I don't think anyone said all illegal immigrants are criminals (outside of illegal entry, of course) and that they're here to intentionally ruin anyone's lives, even if they may do so somewhat indirectly. If so then they're obviously wrong.

If there actually was an invasion of criminals bent replacing Americans, I think a rational response would be to purchase firearms and prepare to defend your home from these criminals in case they do something to you. Is that a wrong response? I think it's a good one.
I am nobody wrote:You cut out, like, all of the context for this statement. The OP is a redirection of arguments used in response to previous mass killings, as I've said.

The full version, again, is that if one blames Muslims (or socialism or radical environmentalism or whatever) at large for terrorism, as major figures have done, then one must also blame the anti-immigrant right at large for the actions in the OP.
I didn't intend to cut out context, sorry if it seems that way.

Terrorism is to be blamed on the individuals, groups, and organized ideologies responsible, as well as anyone inciting violence. If a Muslim commits an act of terrorism on behalf of ISIS it's clear who and what to blame. If a right-winger commits an act of terrorism whose fault is it? No credible right-wingers condone violence, so it's solely upon the individual who committed the crime to bear responsibility, or whatever fringe elements he was involved with. ISIS isn't fringe, they're just behaving like Muhammad. Who are right-wing terrorists behaving like? Trump? I don't see your argument.

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Re: Guns don't kill people

#43

Post by CaptHayfever » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:46 am

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:07 pm
I'm not saying you're wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me. If normal people are capable of doing sick things then does that make sick things normal? I'm not a psychoanalyst, but I struggle to see Hitler as a normal guy who just happened to, you know, be Hitler.
Hitler wasn't normal, but he was able to convince a lot of normal people to support & even participate in terrible things.
No credible right-wingers condone violence
I'm glad we agree that Trump isn't credible.

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Re: Guns don't kill people

#44

Post by smol Kat » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:50 am

IRHP wrote:Also, I'm sure you don't just hear snippets of what Tucker says on some lefty site and walk away believing their crap, right? All it takes is watching Tucker to know it's bull****.
It appears you’ve accused the literal mod of PPR of using unreliable and/or biased sources then cited a biased source yourself… (Source 1; Source 2)

I also have a few issues with the article you quoted, but I feel discussing it would be getting off topic.

So, thing about the invasion language is it's pretty squarely intended to mobilize White supremacists against that group of people. I'd recommend you look into common dogwhistle terms to get a better idea of how that sort of thing can and does happen.
What "obviously inhumane treatment" is being justified? If you mean detaining illegal immigrants, do you have a better solution? I'd like to know what humane, effective action can be taken if you're against that.
Uhhhhh separating children from their families??? A total lack of basic hygiene?? Children literally dying as a direct result of those conditions????? No matter your position on immigration, this just isn't okay.
I don't think anyone said all illegal immigrants are criminals (outside of illegal entry, of course) and that they're here to intentionally ruin anyone's lives, even if they may do so somewhat indirectly. If so then they're obviously wrong.
Uh…
Fox & Friends guest and current CNN commentator Steve Cortes warned that “illegal immigrants are burglars, are thieves who are there to harm your security and steal your prosperity.”
If this doesn't say that, it's certainly damn close.
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Re: Guns don't kill people

#45

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:45 am

CaptHayfever wrote:Hitler wasn't normal, but he was able to convince a lot of normal people to support & even participate in terrible things.
Then why would they do it? Is the point you guys are trying to make that you, I, or anyone can, at any time, be suddenly be convinced to be Nazis? I just don't follow your reasoning, like, the logical conclusion is what?
CaptHayfever wrote:I'm glad we agree that Trump isn't credible.
Depends. He's credible in certain areas, not so much in others. As a politician I think he's credible and competent, maybe as a businessman too (hard to tell, can't be too difficult to be successful when you're loaned millions by daddy). He's not a credible moral figure though, certainly. He talks a good game and supports traditional conservative morals and values, but he doesn't live up to them (although few do, his degeneracy is simply revealed, most people get to keep their skeletons in their closet).
smol Kat wrote:It appears you’ve accused the literal mod of PPR of using unreliable and/or biased sources then cited a biased source yourself…

I also have a few issues with the article you quoted, but I feel discussing it would be getting off topic.
I didn't accuse anyone of using unreliable or biased sources, nor did I cite any myself (if you think so then I'd like to know why)--I suggested he's not doing that. I did, however, insinuate that he's not seeing the truth and only picking something out of context which may sound bad when phrased in a particular way, so I told him to just watch Tucker to see for himself (because if he did then we wouldn't be having this discussion).

If you think it's off-topic then you can PM me, if you want.
smol Kat wrote:So, thing about the invasion language is it's pretty squarely intended to mobilize White supremacists against that group of people. I'd recommend you look into common dogwhistle terms to get a better idea of how that sort of thing can and does happen.
Dogwhistle accusations are unreliable. I've heard some whoppers, Trump is accused of it all the time but none of it is true, it's just the paranoia of people with Trump Derangement Syndrome seeing racism in everything he says and does.
smol Kat wrote:Uhhhhh separating children from their families??? A total lack of basic hygiene?? Children literally dying as a direct result of those conditions????? No matter your position on immigration, this just isn't okay.
You realize some of the sensationalized pictures you see are from under Obama, right? Nobody was complaining when it was happening then, not a peep. The law has families separated, Trump is merely enforcing the same law which was in effect during the Obama administration. Maybe it should be changed, but it hasn't been.

I heard some people died, but I don't know how or why, though they're isolated incidents which are bound to happen when dealing with such a large number of people. I don't know exactly what the facilities provide, but by the looks of it they actually have it better than I do. Maybe I should sneak over the border:


smol Kat wrote:If this doesn't say that, it's certainly damn close.
I don't know the context. If it's anything like the Tucker "dirtier" thing then it's not what it seems. I'm not going to judge out of context quotes, but I will say you're right that it does seem close. Not surprised though, CNN sucks.

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Re: Guns don't kill people

#46

Post by CaptHayfever » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:05 am

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:45 am
Then why would they do it? Is the point you guys are trying to make that you, I, or anyone can, at any time, be suddenly be convinced to be Nazis? I just don't follow your reasoning, like, the logical conclusion is what?
Not suddenly, no. It took time. He had to work for years, wearing down the German populace with his persistence, & capitalizing on their fears & insecurities after WWI. It's a good thing we haven't had a massive national tragedy within the past 20 years that still has Americans afraid.....

I was just pointing out that he does condone violence. Not even through "dogwhistles" & such, but through direct language.

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Re: Guns don't kill people

#47

Post by Random User » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:54 am

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:07 pm
What reasoning does nationalism provide to kill minority groups? I don't understand that. Your culture being under attack doesn't mean you murder others. By that logic any adherence gives "ample reasoning" to kill. Lost the election? Your political party is under attack, go kill. Church attendance down? Go kill. Football team lost again? Kill. I guess we just shouldn't believe in or defend anything because people may become extremists. I don't buy that.
Nationalism inherently pushes the idea that your culture is superior to others, so if your culture is under attack, to an extreme nationalist, it's seen as barbarism threatening to destroy an entire people's way of life. I don't see how one couldn't understand how a worldview like that would encourage someone to kill minorities.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me. If normal people are capable of doing sick things then does that make sick things normal? I'm not a psychoanalyst, but I struggle to see Hitler as a normal guy who just happened to, you know, be Hitler.
I'm not talking about Hitler himself, I mean the staff and politicians in charge of the management and operations of death camps, that were arrested and tried. I can dig up some information about this if you'd like, it's a really fascinating topic.

Your second question is an important one to consider - the implication is that it isn't just extremists capable of committing sickening acts of cruelty. One of the most frustrating things I see people say is "WELL, IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE SENDING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TO DEATH CAMPS." Getting to the point of sending people to death camps is a long process of instilling hardcore nationalist ideals in the population and justifying it with reasons like "our culture is under attack, we have to defend it."

Unsurprisingly, Nazi Germany had camps that were just meant to hold Jews at the border, long before any death camps happened. Not to say Donald Trump is literally Hitler, but the road America's treading is very dangerous, and should be scrutinized to prevent another tragedy from happening. The biggest mistake we can make is assume we aren't capable of that level of cruelty.

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Re: Guns don't kill people

#48

Post by I am nobody » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:47 pm

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:03 am
There's nothing wrong with what Carlson or Lopez said. I can't account for every single comment ever made by all of those people, but I don't see anything particularly "problematic."
The full context doesn't make it much better, honestly. The most generous interpretation I can come up with is that he meant to say that the way the people in the caravan were living right then was dirtier than the average American, but even that's an obviously dishonest comparison. They're not going to keep living like they're in a caravan stuck at the Mexican border if they get where they wanted to go. It'd be like going to a concert, noting that more people got arrested than normal and there's beer cans everywhere, and then concluding that "music fans make America dirty."

But we're getting away from my original quote now. The point is that these figures are normalizing formerly fringe views by echoing them. That page has direct quotes where they're talking about "demographic replacement", which is one of the classic white supremacist conspiracy theories.

Is it not an invasion?
an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain
the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful
infringement by intrusion
entrance as if to take possession or overrun
Would it be okay if they just said there's an "unwelcome intrusion"? Or would it be deemed hateful that illegal immigrants are not welcome? I think anything they say will be attacked.
Are we really just going to quote the dictionary at each other as though neither of us speak English or are capable of grasping connotation? Because I can do that, too. Here's the first result for "define: invasion":
The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.
But you didn't need me to tell you that, because you do speak English and you know perfectly well that "invasion" conjures up images of WWII or the Mongols long before "an unwelcome intrusion." When the US invaded Afghanistan, we didn't send 100,000 soldiers to go squat on the Taliban's lawn and play loud music, we forcefully overthrew their regime, occupied the country, and made a new government. That is an "invasion", and you know that.
What "obviously inhumane treatment" is being justified? If you mean detaining illegal immigrants, do you have a better solution? I'd like to know what humane, effective action can be taken if you're against that.
I'm not going to recount the whole migrant camps story for you. It's all over the internet. You can go look up family separation, toothpaste denial, and whatever other various petty humiliations you care to read about.
I don't think anyone said all illegal immigrants are criminals (outside of illegal entry, of course) and that they're here to intentionally ruin anyone's lives, even if they may do so somewhat indirectly. If so then they're obviously wrong.
I literally quoted someone saying exactly that in my last post. Here it is again!
Fox & Friends guest and current CNN commentator Steve Cortes warned that “illegal immigrants are burglars, are thieves who are there to harm your security and steal your prosperity.”
That sure sounds like they're criminals who want to ruin your life. And CNN gets to join the party, too!
If there actually was an invasion of criminals bent replacing Americans, I think a rational response would be to purchase firearms and prepare to defend your home from these criminals in case they do something to you. Is that a wrong response? I think it's a good one.
Exactly. If you take what's being said at face value, which is a lot easier if you're already reading 8chan conspiracy theories, the rational response is to prepare for violence. Lo and behold, some people prefer not to wait for the criminals to come to their home. This is the point of this thread.

It's not about whether Carlson et al. actually meant for someone to go out and shoot people. They probably didn't. But by using dehumanizing language and violent imagery, and especially by repeating the terminology of extremists who do want violence, they're legitimizing those ideologies in the eyes of people who'll pull the trigger.

The power of speech to incite violence is well known, and there is a moral responsibility to recognize when you're contributing to it and to change something. This is independent of ideology. If someone went and shot up Wall Street tomorrow, there'd be a lot of people on the left who'd bear that responsibility for how they talk about bankers.


Going out of town for the weekend, so not going to be posting here again for a while.

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Re: Guns don't kill people

#49

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:31 am

Just lost a whole post because the site ate it. You'd think I'd have learned by now, with 20 years of this happening, but apparently not. It's hardly worth posting to just say this now, but I'll say we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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