Some airplanes did some things.

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Some airplanes did some things.

#1

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:27 am

The New York Times caused an uproar on Wednesday with a now-deleted tweet and now-updated story that originally said “airplanes” were responsible for the tragic events of Sept. 11, 2001.

“18 years have passed since airplanes took aim and brought down the World Trade Center. Today, families will once again gather and grieve at the site where more than 2000 people died,” the Times’ verified Twitter account wrote in a message accompanying a story about 9/11 victims being remembered at Ground Zero.

The 9/11 anniversary message was immediately met with harsh criticism and was swiftly deleted.

“We've deleted an earlier tweet to this story and have edited for clarity. The story has also been updated,” the Times tweeted.

The updated tweet to promote the story said, “18 years after nearly 3,000 people were lost, families of those killed in the terror attacks will gather at the 9/11 memorial. There will be a moment of silence at 8:46 a.m., then the names of the dead — one by one — will be recited.”

The story, by James Barron, was also changed to note that “terrorists commandeered” the airplanes that brought down the World Trade Center.

The New York Times did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

“The @NYT says airplanes caused 9/11. Wrong. It was Muslim terrorists who waged jihad on American soil and killed thousands of our fellow countrymen in the name of their religion,” Fox News’ Todd Starnes wrote, while Fox News contributor Mike Huckabee noted that the paper doesn’t seem to “have much grasp on recent history.”

“Twin Towers NOT brought down because “airplanes took aim” at them, but b/c radical Islamists hijacked planes & took aim at them,” Huckabee added.

Many users compared the rhetoric in the Times tweet to an infamous remark made by Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., earlier this year when she said “some people did something” when describing the 9/11 attacks.

Many others rushed to Twitter to condemn the Gray Lady with messages ranging from sarcasm to outrage.
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I suppose their update is a mild improvement, but they are still rather vague. Political correctness would have us sanitize history, this is why people call them and CNN, etc fake news. At least there were some funny replies, my favorite included above.

Do you guys think they should've put forth an apology, not just an "edited for clarity" note?

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#2

Post by steeze » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:59 am

I don't really care either way what peoples take on it are. Playing the blame game isn't gonna bring back the people we lost. However, there are family members who would take issue with it. I don't think it's an event that should have any sort of political spin on it. Just be respectful and honor the victims. A better headline would be, "18 years since we lost our heroes to the tragic events of 9/11."
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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#3

Post by CaptHayfever » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:33 am

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#4

Post by steeze » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:02 am

A little OJ just came flying out of my mouth

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#5

Post by I am nobody » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:37 pm

The wording is silly, sure, but also come on. No one is accusing sentient planes of plotting 9/11. I think "journalist trying to come up with an 18th headline about an event says something stupid" ranks slightly higher in likelihood than "attempt to deflect blame for 9/11 onto machines."

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#6

Post by Apollo the Just » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:44 pm

This date really should not be so politicized. It should be about mourning and remembrance for those who lost loved ones. The original headline was **** stupid yeah but who really cares, why are we looking for reasons to be angry. People of all faiths and heritages in NY lost innocent loved ones on 9/11, are they not all allowed to grieve? It's so exhausting. We all know it was a result of extremist terrorism, not sentient airplanes. Let people mourn if they need to and can we as a nation ACTUALLY TRY TO HEAL already

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#7

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:32 am

I am nobody wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:37 pm
The wording is silly, sure, but also come on. No one is accusing sentient planes of plotting 9/11. I think "journalist trying to come up with an 18th headline about an event says something stupid" ranks slightly higher in likelihood than "attempt to deflect blame for 9/11 onto machines."
The thing is, nobody is literally thinking they're blaming sentient planes for 9/11. NYT is just so politically correct that their use of language is compromised to the point that they simply cannot be clear enough to be properly understood, so it can be read in silly ways. It's not hard to say Islamic terrorists did it, at least it wasn't 18 years ago so it shouldn't be today. That's a conservative principle, if something doesn't have a good reason to be changed then it shouldn't. Obfuscating language isn't progressive, it is regressive.

So what is of the highest likelihood is actually "attempt to deflect blame for 9/11 away from Islamic terror", not "onto machines." That's the issue people have with this.
Apollo the Just wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:44 pm
This date really should not be so politicized. It should be about mourning and remembrance for those who lost loved ones. The original headline was **** stupid yeah but who really cares, why are we looking for reasons to be angry. People of all faiths and heritages in NY lost innocent loved ones on 9/11, are they not all allowed to grieve? It's so exhausting. We all know it was a result of extremist terrorism, not sentient airplanes. Let people mourn if they need to and can we as a nation ACTUALLY TRY TO HEAL already
You're right that it should be about mourning and remembrance, but totally remembrance, not partial. Those people didn't just vanish for no reason. People do look for reasons to be angry though, that's for sure (for the record, I'm not angry, just disappointed).

Nobody is saying anything resembling that certain people aren't allowed to grieve, I think that's your own perception and doesn't actually correspond to the topic or any comments I've read. Also, I'm not sure everyone knows it was a result of Islamic terrorism. We might, but my nephew didn't. I suspect they're not teaching the whole story, probably framing it as NYT did--very vaguely.

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#8

Post by smol Kat » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:27 am

Editing for clarity was a perfectly reasonable move. News sources and journals make errors like that pretty often, and clarifications/corrections are how they are (and should be) held accountable. Doesn't mean they are automatically wrong about every single little thing; in fact I'd be more suspicious of a source that NEVER posted clarifications or corrections.

Steeze's suggested headline is absolutely perfect, btw, and is the kind of rhetoric we should all aim for. After all, we aren't still laying blame for Pearl Harbor Day and so forth--but we are absolutely still honoring the victims. THAT'S how we heal.
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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#9

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:07 pm

The two tragedies are blatantly incomparable, Pearl Harbor was a move by a hostile government for an objectively logical reason; we were trying to stop Japan's global expansion. Bit different from some loons killing us because Muhammad would want them to. And no, I'm not downplaying Pearl Harbor to conveniently back muh bigotry. The difference means nothing to the victims, but accuracy is king. Maybe if someone told NYT that then this wouldn't be a topic.

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#10

Post by steeze » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:42 pm

I think you're missing the whole purpose of 9/11 honestly. It's been 18 years and it's not about remembering who did what "to" us but about who did what "for" us. That's what the Never Forget slogan is based around. Maybe accuracy is king in your opinion and that's fine. The facts are known in history. We know who orchestrated the attacks.

That 15 of the 19 were al-Quida members from Saudi Arabia. That a former Saudi consulate officer and a suspected Saudi intelligence officer helped plan the attack with al-Quida. That a third Saudi officials name has been withheld from the lawsuit involving 9/11 Families & Survivors United for Justice Against Terrorism / 9/11 victim compensation fund.

It was slated for release until William Barr decided to step in and claim it was privileged information because he's a more senior official than the other two.

Which in my opinion is straight up nonsense. Why hide someone's involvement in an event so big it marked the beginning to a conflict that's lasted almost two decades? Why not hold the parties who were actually responsible accountable when it happened? That would be admitting that the U.S. decided not to hold the Saudi Arabian government accountable for anything. Admitting that there was a connection that would put the U.S. on even rockier grounds with it's second biggest oil exporter.

Pearl Harbor - 9/11- Both attacks on U.S. soil claiming lives. Both attacks throwing us into bloody wars. Both attacks premeditated in order to provoke U.S. response. I wouldn't say they are blatantly incomparable there are certain similarities. Something that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread (most likely because I haven't said it.) is this is the NEW YORK TIMES. For everyone around the country the attacks on 9/11 were 18 years ago but for those who actually here consider this: People who were on their way to work like any other day all of a sudden seeing explosions in the sky above them. Hearing bodies hit the ground from people jumping from 15 stories to escape the smoke over and over again like a drum beating.

Parents leaving their children to go search for their brothers and sisters in the rubble. Wheelbarrows full of body parts being pushed from the site to try and be identified. Weeks of funerals, bodies never recovered, families torn apart forever. When I see news coverage about that day or hear someone talk about it there is an absolute pit in my stomach it makes me feel sick. So that day might have been 18 years ago for everyone else but for everyone here, those are wounds that have never healed.

We don't have to be reminded who did it. We just want to remember the people who we don't have anymore. The NYT is our newspaper. That bitterness and hatred is incomparable to the love and loss. Maybe that's why there are people who hold onto that hatred. There was never anything lost for them. I'm sorry if this has been a graphic and emotional post but I just wanted to set the record straight because all too often people do indeed forget and get caught up in pointing fingers at the wrong things. All we wanted was a little accountability and to look up at our photos of loved ones gone and smile knowing we're always thinking of them.

Edit* Not everyone thinks the way I do. Some people still feel the hatred for any word that contains Islam. I'm just not one of those people. Which is why I said earlier it doesn't matter to me what they print but some family members might. It's important to differentiate between an educated opinion and an opinion that takes face value and applies it to everything.

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#11

Post by CaptHayfever » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:54 pm

Speaking of accuracy being king...
I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:07 pm
we were trying to stop Japan's global expansion.
We weren't, though; that's the thing. We were deliberately staying out of the war effort until Pearl Harbor. It was a preemptive strike by Japan; that was literally the entire purpose of the operation.

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#12

Post by I am nobody » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:10 pm

Not to turn this into a WWII thread, but while the US was technically neutral before Pearl Harbor, it absolutely was not staying out of the "war effort." The Lend-Lease program and others clearly supported the Allies, severe trade restrictions and sanctions had been placed on Japan years earlier, and the Army began a massive personnel buildup in mid-1941. Japan felt the need to make a pre-emptive strike because the US was by then an obviously hostile power even if no shots had been fired.

Anyway, I really don't buy that there's any attempt to deflect blame for anything in this headline. What you said isn't any different - if that headline is an attempt to deflect away from Islam, it could only be by deflecting it on to sentient airplanes. Reminding everyone of the method of attack would be a pretty stupid way to deflect blame, too. Way easier to just say "9/11 happened 18 years ago."

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#13

Post by smol Kat » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:10 pm

And, to be clear, that was just one example. JIC that wasn't clear. :)
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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#14

Post by Random User » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:03 pm

I am nobody wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:10 pm
Not to turn this into a WWII thread, but while the US was technically neutral before Pearl Harbor, it absolutely was not staying out of the "war effort." The Lend-Lease program and others clearly supported the Allies, severe trade restrictions and sanctions had been placed on Japan years earlier, and the Army began a massive personnel buildup in mid-1941. Japan felt the need to make a pre-emptive strike because the US was by then an obviously hostile power even if no shots had been fired.
It's a bit more nuanced than that, too - strategically Japan was attempting to make a pre-emptive strike to delay US response to an attack on the Philippines by at least six or so months. The Philippines being a necessary foothold for the Japanese because of the US' obviously negative attitude towards Japan - Japan needed to secure the Dutch Indies, and their supply lines could easily be plundered or cut off by the US.

The execution of said operation was a total blunder by the Japanese, and a total waste considering that Japanese forces had honestly achieved nearly total surprise against US forces and could have succeeded had pilots not prioritized the wrong targets.

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#15

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:08 am

CaptHayfever wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:54 pm
Speaking of accuracy being king...
I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:07 pm
we were trying to stop Japan's global expansion.
We weren't, though; that's the thing. We were deliberately staying out of the war effort until Pearl Harbor. It was a preemptive strike by Japan; that was literally the entire purpose of the operation.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"
The U.S. Was Trying to Stop Japan’s Global Expansion

In light of such atrocities, the United States began passing economic sanctions against Japan, including trade embargoes on aircraft exports, oil and scrap metal, among other key goods, and gave economic support to Guomindang forces. In September 1940, Japan signed the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy, the two fascist regimes then at war with the Allies.

Tokyo and Washington negotiated for months leading up to the Pearl Harbor attack, without success. While the United States hoped embargoes on oil and other key goods would lead Japan would halt its expansionism, the sanctions and other penalties actually convinced Japan to stand its ground, and stirred up the anger of its people against continued Western interference in Asian affairs.

To Japan, war with the United States had become to seem inevitable, in order to defend its status as a major world power. Because the odds were stacked against them, their only chance was the element of surprise.
https://www.history.com/news/why-did-ja ... arl-harbor
Spoiler.
ok
steeze wrote:We don't have to be reminded who did it.
Your post was heartfelt and well written but I don't have any input on most of it. But I will zero in on this one part--I guess having the news mentioning the dangerous ideology which drove the madmen is just not as important to some as it is to others. I can't understand that, but I respect it. We will just have to agree to disagree on that, which is fine.
I am nobody wrote:If that headline is an attempt to deflect away from Islam, it could only be by deflecting it on to sentient airplanes.
Why? Not mentioning Islamic terrorism is one thing, separate from sentient airplanes. You can have one without the other. In this case the sentient airplanes are a mere byproduct of trying (and failing) to poetically work around stating facts, ending up wonky as a result. Turns out crucial facts are hard to leave out. They either end up spitting out some borderline nonsense junk to us like they did, or...
I am nobody wrote:...just say "9/11 happened 18 years ago."
...they just state the absolute minimum to avoid relevant facts instead, which would be too obvious. Kinda like it's obvious to many what NYT did but which you deny. Can't prove it of course, so I guess it is pointless.

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#16

Post by I am nobody » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:43 pm

It's really not hard to write a better headline that doesn't mention Islam if that's your only goal, though. "18 years since hjiackers brought down the Twin Towers" "18 years have passed since 2,000 killed in WTC attacks", etc. Or, if you wanted to properly deflect blame, something like "18 years since intelligence failures allowed 9/11". There's loads of better ways to do it that take 30 seconds to think of.

You're right that it can't be proven either way, but this is definitely a case of "adequately explained by stupidity."

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Re: Some airplanes did some things.

#17

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:36 pm

Mentioning hijackers naturally leads to thinking about them and therefore their reasons, or asking if you don't know. Better to avoid that entirely if trying to scrub history. And something like that last one would be seen as even more controversial, probably.

I'm sure they just underestimated people and put less thought into it than we just did, regardless of their intent.

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