Why it's important to use a person's preferred pronouns

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#21

Post by Deepfake » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:30 am

[QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1555951, member: 26719"]If people can make up new pronouns I don't see the problem with using what we already have. It makes as much sense. I really don't care unless someone insists on using pronouns outside of what we already have.[/QUOTE]
In that case you're better off with them and they, unless you want to start fights? I mean, it seems like that's what you're after, but maybe not. Calling anyone an 'it' is tactless and bound to be taken as debasing. If you don't have a problem with calling someone by their name, which is a completely made up noun which requires no language precedence, it seems a bit pedantic to start complaining about pronouns as well.

And you're incorrect in that matter, as It makes less sense - It is already in common use which conflicts the purpose of the language and will confuse the matter.
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#22

Post by Kil'jaeden » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:41 am

Most people want he or she, so it is not really a big issue. Just call people what they want, I guess. But I am sure that somewhere out there, people are demanding "it" to be used for them.
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#23

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:50 am

^ http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Pronouns#It
While considered offensive by most, some nonbinary people use "it" as a means of reclamation and to challenge the idea that genderlessness is inherently dehumanizing.
Correct.

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#24

Post by Deepfake » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:06 am

^ Actually good posts on this matter, thanks guys.
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#25

Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:07 am

[QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1555956, member: 26719"]Just call people what they want, I guess.[/QUOTE]

We have a winner, everyone.
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#26

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:07 am

Hell Orb, post: 1555946, member: 25415 wrote:Overall, I'm not a person with a campaign here. I don't think society is good for people but I don't think it's inherently evil, I was just trying to explain the perspective of people who feel as though this is a matter of sexism. Telling a kid he is going to be 'gay' because he picked up a barbie one time is really ****ed up overall, to the adult they're just making a wisecrack and not thinking about it but really we can do without being rude to eachother a bit more - especially in the US which I've found is where people tend to open their mouths when they don't need. Man, I grew up in Ohio which is statistically the 'most rude' state.
Well, I can't see reluctance to give into abnormal demands to be sexist. Perhaps, at most, a bit unmannerly. Besides, if these types of people and articles came off more humble and polite maybe I'd feel more inclined to play along. I don't do "you musts" well. I do agree people should be less rude to each other, though.
Hell Orb]But you know wrote:always[/i] going to be more problems if we keep changing the terms for what's 'okay' but I think overall we'll be better off if we remember to pick fights over bigger issues like types of attacks, etc. I know there's concern over cultural chilling effects, but sometimes I ask myself if it's not just better off let go? Change happens, and we have the option to be pissed at it and fight it and lose or just relax and adapt. People can be kinder, I don't mind that.
How far do you "let it go," though? Some bend is practically a must, but we don't need to be pretzels.
Hell Orb]Mind you wrote:
Haha, sounds about right.

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#27

Post by Deepfake » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:13 am

I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1555966, member: 18119 wrote: I don't do "you musts" well. I do agree people should be less rude to each other, though.
Yeah, I'm perfectly happy to treat people with respect but when they start making demands and treating me like part of the herd I write them off as a prick. Doesn't make them wrong, but does mean I stop caring about their emotions because they default at irate and I'm not going to debase myself to apologise for existing.
How far do you "let it go," though? Some bend is practically a must, but we don't need to be pretzels.
I don't know if there's a limit or where it is, seems like everyone's got their own. I haven't hit the point where it felt like I needed to pick a fight yet, though, and I am genuinely unbothered. I first heard about 'Xim' pronouns in a speculative book a friend of mine wrote about medically transferring a dying person's consciousness into an android, wherein that person felt detached from their body and all concepts of gender inherent to traditional nature. I've had a lot of time to accept it, so it seems like not a problem to me. It seems like an unnecessary thought at first but like most things it's just part of the background noise and if I ever have to apply it in person it will probably be a rare instance, so it's easy to be flippant. So overall, I'm cool as long as people are respectful in making requests. If I address you first as a he or she, I'm not trying to attach sexist stereotypes to you, I'm just doing what I was taught in the first place.
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#28

Post by Kil'jaeden » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:29 am

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1555963, member: 18119"]^ http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Pronouns#It



Correct.[/QUOTE]

I was trying to get someone else to look it up. You went and ruined it.
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#29

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:35 am

Image

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#30

Post by Sim Kid » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:21 pm

[QUOTE="Hell Orb, post: 1555605, member: 25415"]I think the first time I really got how hurtful sexism can be was when, as a kid, I saw a gag t-shirt that said 'boys suck, throw rocks at them' which I didn't think was cute, it just sounded hateful[/QUOTE]

I know those shirts you are talking about.

Controversy rose in 2003, and we were actually asked in class what we thought about it - I felt that the popularity of those shirts, as well as the message they sent was wrong. But, we were told that "oh it's a joke" and "You shouldn't be offended by it", as well as the very popular informal fallacy of relative privation. I then asked what would happen if those shirts read "Girls are stupid, throw rocks at them." and suddenly the mood changed - and I had to ask why it was "okay" and "A joke" when the message on those shirts read "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" But it's suddenly a sexist and misogynist attack if it says "Girls are stupid, throw rocks at them". What we have at play is a double standard. So if it is okay one way ,but not the other, why? If the sole difference between "a joke" and "A sexist, misogynist attack" is one word, then I think there's more to it than it seems, especially in this case.

Oh yeah, also durin the controversy, people sent emails to the company about it and got responses like "Paul franks sucks so you must be a f**" and "Go back to doing nails, lady!" (btw, the "lady" in question was asian.)

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#31

Post by LOOT » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:34 pm

regarding: People that are jerks: I'm not saying they should deserve your attention, but in the long run at least referring to them as how they identify is a good step in telling everyone that we're all human. Otherwise yeah if people are losers they are in fact losers!!

double standards are kinda strange now. The moral of the shirt problem is obviously "it's not okay for one side because it's discrimination why would you reverse it" but here in lies the problem that they may not see the actual reason for being a double standard, instead of "women are individuals and humans and it's wrong to treat them as less" some take it as "FEMALES are fragile creatures and get their feelings hurt easily but that's okay US MEN will protect you even when you claim you're fine"

obviously I know AI and Sim aren't saying that, and it's another issue well worth diving into.

(could we not use the f-slur please, I know I've a mouth to make a sailor blush but slurs like that make me wince because of the hate intention. at least censor it out)

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#32

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:53 pm

What f-slur?

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#33

Post by Deku Tree » Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:10 pm

^Derogatory term for gays.

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#34

Post by Sim Kid » Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:42 pm

I apologize for saying it, even though it was in a quote. And yes, that is exactly the problem - because I still see the issue of handling women with "kid gloves" as sexism. Didn't the precursors of modern day feminism fight for women to be taken seriously and to be held to the same standards as men, and show that they are strong?

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#35

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:19 am

[Quote=Sim Kid]I still see the issue of handling women with "kid gloves" as sexism.[/quote]

A lot of women perpetuate this problem themselves, like those dumb Facebook posts saying real men don't hit women, with a picture a towering man clenching his fist over a crumpled woman, as if your manhood is only in jeopardy when hitting women, not men.

I don't condone hitting women, my point is "equality" encompasses the good and the bad and not all women understand that.

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#36

Post by Kil'jaeden » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:39 am

^I think that sort of thing is a case of confusing equality with something else. Women, in the West at least, already have legal and social equality with men. No one legally discriminates against women, and certain social attitudes about women are castigated, even if they are positive. None of this means that men and women are the same, which is where the confusion comes from. What equality seems to mean for some people is for men to always treat women exactly as they would other men. I don't think most women would really like this.
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#37

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:20 pm

^ Yeah, treating everyone the same is a disservice to our inherent differences, I don't know why anybody would want that. Difference seems taboo now.

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#38

Post by CaptHayfever » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:12 pm

^^Key word: "Legally".
As in "people like finding dishonest justifications to legally get away with treating others horribly" and "certain current politicians are trying to change what's legally allowable."

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#39

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:39 pm

[Quote=CaptHayfever]"people like finding dishonest justifications to legally get away with treating others horribly.[/quote]

Maybe they do. That doesn't mean "men like finding dishonest justifications to legally get away with treating women horribly" in case that's the implication. The general statement is true, though.

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#40

Post by CaptHayfever » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:49 pm

Some men do, & some is too many.

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